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An update on Halston 1-12 formulations.

Halston 1-12 Halston for men

I wrote up a long post about my perceptions of changes in Halston’s Z-14 and 1-12, which you can read here:

https://bigslyfragrance.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/the-disintegration-of-the-fabulous-halston-brothers-z-14-and-1-12/

The other day I had an opportunity to buy an EA formulation of 1-12 at a good price.  That’s not uncommon right now, but what was is that it was in a box with the “short list of ingredients.”  I did some research and found this in a review of 1-12 at Fragrantica.com:

It has, without a question been reformulated. The result is a lot thinner, weaker, less ‘gutsy fragrance’. The boxes look similar except for the fact that evernia prunastri (oakmoss) and evernia furfuracia (tree moss) are not listed as ingredients on the new box. Also, Benzophenone 2 ( a UV absorber) is not on the new box, while butylmethoxydibenzoylmethane, ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate, ethyl salicylate are new ingredients listed. The first two are something to do with absorbing UV (they are used in sunscreens) and the ethyl salicylate smells like wintergreen. It seems that the Benzophenone 2 was removed as it is not approved for use in US sunscreens as it is a possible hormone disruptor.

I hadn’t sampled an older EA formulation of it, so I was curious, but after reading the above and also having learned that the short list of ingredients means the scent was made somewhere between 1998 and 2003 (or so many claim), I thought I’d get a “vintage” formulation.  The batch code is 3HA, and one of the batch code sites says 2013, which likely means 2003, because some companies reuse them every ten years.  Benzophenone 2 is listed but butylmethoxydibenzoylmethane, ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate, and ethyl salicylate are not.

This does indeed smell like my “true vintage” bottle, with strong galbanum.  It may be at touch less complex, rich, and/or strong.  Prices on ebay can be great if you just have patience and wait for a listing that is “vintage.”  Other information about this box/bottle (125 ml size):

On the front of the box it says Natural Spray Cologne Vaporisateur.

The label on the bottom of the bottle says French Fragrances, not EA Fragrances, but it was sealed in plastic so the seller likely would not have been willing to open it up to look, though it may not matter.

The most important thing seems to be to find a box with the “short list of ingredients.”  This one has five items listed in total.

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Viking’s “naturalness:” let’s ask an expert.

expert-advice

This post is a continuation of the last one.  First, I’ll mention that the point is to address the claim that 80% of the non-perfumer’s alcohol content of a Creed Viking bottle is “natural.”  The “problem” is that this is not consistent with “modern perfumery,” which relies on synthetics to provide potency to these concoctions.  Without these, one is very limited in terms of the kinds of compositions one can create that will satisfy consumers’ expectations of longevity and projection.  And what makes the 80% claim especially ridiculous, IMO, is how powerful Viking is, and it doesn’t smell at all natural to me (the wood notes in particular seem highly synthetic), unlike some other Creed scents, which are impressive in terms of blending the naturals with the synthetics.  What percentage “natural” are those?  Perhaps a reader would like to contact Creed and ask them how natural this or that scent of theirs is, relative to Viking.  If nothing else, that might provide some humor.

The fragrance chemist I interviewed for a post on this blog a while back was willing to speak to this issue, and here’s what this person said:

I have not had the chance to try it yet, and the claim about being 80% natural is akin to the legal notion of being within the scope of the law but not in keeping with the spirit of the law. Technically they could be telling the truth because so many aroma chemicals are derived from natural sources, but to use that as a selling point is somewhat lazy and disingenuous (like saying that cheetos are made of whole grain, etc.) Also, it’s a very low stakes claim for them to make, because you’d need to do a great deal of leg room to disprove it (and would need some expensive equipment and a fairly deep knowledge of chemistry) so they clearly don’t mind casually throwing out claims that sound impressive to the average joe.

That said, Creed is known for their truth-adjacent marketing, so you’re right on the money to be skeptical.

It’s very rare that a company would use most of the naturals found in one of these blends for any commercial fragrance (or for the parfum in a functional product), for a number a reasons:

1. Cost. Most naturals have synthetic counterparts that are cheaper. Easy enough.

2. Sourcing. It’s very hard to ensure consistent quality when dealing with naturals and is very costly (see reason 1.)

3. Regulation. The rules on safety are tight (and getting tighter every day) for cosmetic products. A place like the perfumers workshops sell their stuff as educational tools and not functional products, which allows them to sidestep the testing you’d normally have to undergo to put a product to market.

4. Technical aspect. Naturals, while often providing a nice finishing touch to a composition (in small doses), can interact with each other in weird ways and tend not hold up as well over time (this applies mostly to high volatility stuff, hence why your vintage perfumes top notes tend to go off.) For companies looking to create a product that can sit in warehouses for years, this is not an ideal setup.

However, as perfumer Chris Bartlett points out, in the industry, a natural ingredient means:

Aroma chemicals isolated to various levels of purity from natural starting materials by means that do not involve chemical transformations. Also in this category are individual aroma chemicals produced by means of bacterial fermentation.

https://pellwall.com/product-category/ingredients-for-perfumery/natural-ingredients/naturalisolates/

So as I’ve said before, if Creed could produce Viking this way, they have done nearly the equivalent of deriving a pound of gold from a few pounds of lead!  If they haven’t had a major scientific breakthrough at their lab, then the list of ingredients on the box may help us out here.  For Viking it is:

alcohol, parfum (fragrance), aqua (water), limonene, linalool, ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate, ethylhexyl salicylate, butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane, geraniol, eugenol, coumarin, cintronellol, citral, cinnamyl alcohol, farnesol, isoeugenol, benzyl alcohol, BHT.

Now this may not mean much to you, but I think that if we look at the labels of other scents, ones that are “mass market” and with no claims to 80% “naturals,” things might make more sense.  For example, the ingredients for Calligraphy Rose by Aramis are:

alcohol, parfum (fragrance), aqua (water), butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane, ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate, cintronellol, ethylhexyl salicylate, geraniol, linalool, benzyl benzoate, coumarin, cinnamyl alcohol, eugenol, benzyl cinnamate cinnamal, benzyl alcohol, citral, limonene, isoeugenol.

Generally, the list of ingredients can provide some idea of what the scent smells like, but more importantly in terms of this blog post, such a list tells us that it’s likely the was made the way other mass consumer scents are.  My guess is that polysantol or another powerful sandalwood synthetic (perhaps more than one) was used in Viking, but that would not be listed unless it was considered a potential allergen, from what I understand.  And remember, there is something called “natural perfumery;” here is what one natural perfumer stated on his site:

As Luca Turin explained, mainstream fragrances simply cannot afford anymore to use them because of their price: “The big six perfumery firms are aroma chemicals manufacturers, and it is in their interest to keep naturals, with their attendant problems of price and quality fluctuations, to a bare minimum.

He discloses exactly what he uses to make his fragrances:

Absolute as defined by ISO 9235
Alcohol natural
Animal Extracts and tinctures: (civet, Castoreum, Hyraceum, Ambergris, Honey bee).
Concrete: as defined by ISO 9235
Essential oils: as defined by ISO 9235
Extracts: as defined by ISO 9235
Propylen Glicole (PG) (with my cocoa extract only) 
Resinoids
: as defined by ISO 9235
Tinctures: as defined by ISO 9235
Water

https://attarperfumes.net/guaranty-of-naturality/

Why can’t Creed tell us how they define natural?  If you are interested in natural perfumery, there’s a New York Times article about it that mentions this perfumer:

NOTE:  I have no affiliation with this or any perfumer, other than a small number of  messages exchanged with Chris Bartlett quite some time ago through the Basenotes.net message service, though that’s not an affiliation, as far as I know (and I also disclosed obtaining samples and a bottle from the M. Cross company when I reviewed his offerings).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The difference between magical thinking and reasonable assumptions.

Magical Thinking

First, I suggest you read this blog post before reading what is below the link:

https://frompyrgos.blogspot.com/2018/01/understanding-difference-between-terms.html

In graduate school, I learned to investigate phenomena beyond textbooks.  Basically, you learn about the existing notions, then study the primary sources for yourself or possibly do studies/experiments.  And you have several professors who serve as advisors, formally or informally.  Today, you can do much of this online, but a major problem is that many if not most people don’t appear to be able to distinguish between those who have expertise and those who are pretending to be experts (if they are able to gain access to someone with expertise).  In this online world, though, one can try a different approach (at least with the fragrance industry, that is, if it’s difficult to find experts who are willing to speak “on the record” if at all), which is to go to the relevant “online communities” and ask questions.  If you don’t useful responses (even if that is due to poor explanations rather than lies, misinformation, etc.), you can then present a tentative conclusion of your own.  If it turns out you are incorrect, that’s fine, because you want to learn something, not impress others with your “expertise,” which you don’t possess, at least officially, anyway!

Now as to the subject of claims about how these kinds of olfactory concoctions are being “debased” or otherwise modified significantly in recent years.  Perfumer Chris Bartlett, who has been willing to answer questions at Basenotes.net if not elsewhere as well, has stated that traditional chypres are no longer possible if current IFRA guidelines are used, for example.  But this is not only an issue for naturals; there have been complaints about the “restriction” of certain aroma chemicals going back at least about a decade!  And one in particular that comes up every once in a while is Terre d’Hermes; the claim is that the first formulation contained 55% iso e super (ies), but that it contains much less now (along with other ingredients, possibly).  This passage from a blog is often quoted in this context:

Here is a table of Top Ten Fragrances with Regard to Their Content in Iso E Super
No., Fragrance Name (Company, launch year), Iso E Super
[NB. the percentage is in regards to compound, not diluted ready to use product]

1 Molecule 01 (escentric molecules, 2005) 100%
2 Perles de Lalique (Lalique, 2007) 80%
3 Poivre Samarcande (Herme`s, 2004) 71%
4 Escentric 01 (escentric molecules, 2005) 65%
5 Terre d’Hermes (Hermes, 2006) 55%

https://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/2009/03/iso-e-super-its-merits-its-faults-geza.html

And here is the kind of concern one might encounter (from nearly five years ago):

A lot of people are anosmic to ISO E Super, (as well as certain musks).

I own Encre Noir and sometimes have a hard time detecting part of it.

It has a lot of ISO E Super in it. Terre d’Hermes does as well and the amount of ISO E Super in that one used to be even more significant until regulations curbed the usage of the chemical somewhat.

https://www.fragrantica.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=68003

Are a lot of people anosmic to it?  I would guess that is the case and would be very surprised if it weren’t the case, but could it just be the amount that is the issue?  Anyway, the key point here is the obvious misinformation, apparently: TdH has not been restricted in terms of at least the ies content.  Most likely, this person saw somewhere that TdH is 55% ies and that ies was now restricted to 21.4%, and so assumed that recent formulations were much weaker.  And one has to question why IFRA bothered to create this new guideline, since if a scent is “100% iso e super,” and it’s 80% alcohol, that means it’s around 20% ies (a bit less due to the water, and possibly preservatives/dyes), still under 21.4%!  What is the purpose of a “restriction” that has no practical use?  It almost seems like it was intended to be misleading.

Before going further with TdH and the ies content, I think it’s worth addressing an area of misunderstanding.  When one looks at a list of ingredients on a typical EdT box of today, which would be something like “alcohol, water/aqua, parfum/fragrance, linalool, citral, eugenol, etc. (possibly a preservative like BHT would be included, towards the end, and dyes are common, such as “yellow 5,” or tartrazine).  This means there is more alcohol than anything else in the liquid (clearly, the glass that comprises the bottle is not relevant here).  Also, sometimes we see “alcohol, parfum/fragrance, water/aqua…” and then the other items.  On the box, we see a number with the percentage symbol next to it, usually somewhere between about 80 and 90 (for EdT and EdPs), which represents the alcohol content.  Thus, we know that everything else listed makes up about 20% or less of the liquid within.

So, why does anyone need to tell us that TdH isn’t or never was 55% ies; why don’t they say that the portion that is “parfum/fragrance” may be 55% ies?  Isn’t that obvious to those who know what “90% vol.” (or whatever amount) means?  But things get worse, for as you can read on the FromPyrgos blog page cited above, some people want to talk in terms of “of compound” and “in concentrate.”  This may be the way perfumers talk to each other, but it is not what consumers have been and are exposed to, and it obviously can be quite misleading!  For example, let’s say you buy some peach ice cream with this list of ingredients: “milk, cream, sugar,  artificial peach flavoring, peaches.”  When you eat it, you see bits of actual peach, but even in parts of the ice cream that have no visible peach bits, it still tastes strongly of peach.  You know that the artificial peach flavoring is responsible or largely responsible, because, being listed in front of peaches, there is more of it in the mix, and it’s not something you would be able to see, unlike the actual peach bits.  Do we need someone to talk of the elements that comprise the ice cream as “of compound” or “in concentrate?”  Wouldn’t that just make things very confusing for many if not most consumers?

Now let’s take a look at a comment by someone who was confused about this about a decade ago:

I was quite scared and angry until I read the comments. I thought it was a ban – I guess I jumped the gun. If comments by Alex (I’m guessing our Alex?) are correct, then the limitation on Iso E Super will be 20% of the final composition. He says that TdH is only 5% Iso E Super in the final product (based on 50% of concentrate, at 10% EdT strength). He says we should worry if the regulation was, say, 10%.

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/218008-IFRA-regulation-of-ISO-E-Super

But why does it need to be that complicated?  You can look at the box or label and see what the alcohol content is, and then you know the parfum/fragrance is going to be a percentage of whatever is left over, so if it says “90% vol.,” you know that the parfum/fragrance is less than 10% (since there is also water, probably other things that contribute to the smell – certainly the case with TdH – and possibly dyes and preservatives as well).  But now we need to understand what IFRA restricted, in terms of ies, and that apparently means that it can be used up to 21.4% of the entire content, not just the parfum/fragrance content.  Since TdH was one of the strongest ies scents of all time, “restricting” the ies content to about four times this is not what most people would consider any kind of “restriction” (especially compared to their most recent guidelines on oakmoss!).  Thus we have another area of potential confusion.  Also, if you want to blame someone for a reduction of ies in TdH, it would seem that would be Hermes.  Why not send them an email and ask, as a BN member did with Creed’s “80% natural ingredients in the parfum portion” claim” (to be addressed in my next blog post)?  And do we need to know about “dilution?”  Of course it’s diluted with the alcohol – otherwise when you sprayed it you would never know what you would be getting!  It would be like the peach ice cream, at least in terms of being able to pick out the peach bits and only eat those (if you decanted it and if the undiluted parfum/fragrance portion was visible).

As to claims that some people are imagining ies content, we only have to turn to the Wikipedia page on this aroma chemical to see the reality there:

…chronic exposure to Iso E Super from perfumes may result in permanent hypersensitivity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramethyl_acetyloctahydronaphthalenes

And as is stated there, it seems to be dangerous as well:

Iso E Super is toxic and bioaccumulative in aquatic organisms and the environment, and is suspected to be bioaccumulative in humans.

So, I certainly would be one to applaud more restrictions of iso e super (because I seem to be one of the people have become hypersensitized to it), but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be an issue with IFRA at the moment.  And now I’ll turn back to the title of this post.  There is no magical thinking on my part, nor has there been, in terms of at least ies.  That is, I have and am still trying to figure out what the reality is here.  For example, I still don’t understand why it’s necessary to talk in terms of “in concentrate” and “of compound” when we know the alcohol content is going to be so high, and we also know that of course it’s been diluted into the alcohol, or else it would smell differently when we sprayed it!

Misunderstanding that is due to experts not being able to explain well or not wanting to divulge “industry secrets” is like a poorly-written textbook that also may contain misinformation.  If that’s the case, you might want to investigate for yourself, and as part of that you might want to put forth a tentative hypothesis, to see what the responses are to it.  One of those responses might lead you to the truth, and so appearing to be “wrong” is a small price to pay.   If I was wrong, that involved making the reasonable assumption that the 21.4% ies “restriction” must refer to the parfum/fragrance portion, since otherwise it’s essentially a meaningless gesture, apparently.  Moreover, it’s often a good idea to continue to press the investigation forward, whereas magical thinking is characterized by a “closed mind.”  Overall, magical thinking seems to involve believing things that are inconsistent with what is known (in some cases including the “laws of nature”), as well as an inability to recognize that one’s  perceptions can vary significantly.  Perhaps worst of all, those who engage in it tend to persist stubbornly in their notions, assuming that what is at best a tentative hypothesis can’t possibly be wrong, which can mislead others too!

NOTE:  You might be asking yourself (as I did), whether certain aroma chemicals that appear on the ingredient list, such as linalool, are part of the parfum/fragrance portion but are just listed separately for some reason.  If so, doesn’t this violate the “rule” for listing ingredients, which is that the one that is most common is listed first and the one that is least common is listed last (and so forth)?  I asked a fragrance chemist whom I met during a swap, and this is the response I got:

They [that is, items like linalool, citral, and eugenol] are considered part of the parfum, but are listed for a number of reasons. The items listed tend to fall into a number of categories:  GRAS (generally recognized as safe), ubiquitous (long tail theory in action) and used primary as blenders/fixatives/stabilizers/preservatives. Listing them started as a way to show some transparency over what is going into their cosmetics while not giving much away at all. The industry was compelled to start the practice of throwing the consumer a bone a few decades past, and once rules get stuck in place they tend to take hold.

Apparently, “transparency” is not the real goal here, at least for those in the industry, but whatever the case may be, unless percentages are listed, we can’t know for sure (a GC/MS study can be useful here but is rarely done AND disclosed to the public) how much of anything is in the liquid, and when a percentage is given, as was the case with the ies content of TdH long ago, one might want to ask the source of the information (or misinformation) whether he/she is referring to all the liquid in the bottle or just the parfum/fragrance portion.

 

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How can one review a scent for newbies: the Dior Homme Intense example.

Dior Homme Intense 2011 Christian Dior for men

I’ve wanted to sample Dior Homme Intense for years, but every time I got close it alluded me, such as a few swap negotiations that fell through, and one ebay purchase that the seller refused to honor (she claimed her grandmother accidentally listed it at the wrong Buy It Now price).  Still, I decided it made sense to wait, because what would be the best result?  I’d like it and buy a bottle, then wear it once or twice a year?  But recently I was able to try the 2015 formulation, and while I was thinking about something else crossed my mind: would my review of it make sense to a newbie?

First, I’ll start with my Fragrantica.com review of DHI:

…I wore that 2015 batch of DHI. I’m getting a kind of neutered version of original DH (I used two sprays to the chest half an hour ago), but it does seem to have more of a gourmand element, though nothing all that special to me. So far, I’d say I’d buy this at a low price or swap for it, because it is reasonably pleasant, an okay winter office scent, but I think I’d rather wear something like Magnet for Men by Eclectic Collections because I prefer the notes in that one and the “quality” seems to be the same. I’ll update if I get something different as it develops.

UPDATE: I can understand the appeal, as the balance is nice, but I don’t find it especially interesting, and there’s a touch of what I perceive as “laundry musk.” What Luca Turin said about Jaipur Homme, that it feels like it’s part of a group of items that comprises a gift set (something to that effect) is how I think about DHI. Vintage Jaipur Homme, though (at least EdP), is something at least relatively unique, and it does take chances, so to speak. How things have changed since the Turin/Sanchez “guide” book was published, nearly a decade ago!  At this point, if asked, I’d have to say I prefer Halloween Man Shot to this 2015 batch of DHI, because it develops into a more compelling blend of similar notes, and also doesn’t have the lavender (which I think is just a distraction in DHI).

The listed notes for DHI are:

Top note is lavender; middle notes are iris, ambrette (musk mallow) and pear; base notes are vetiver and virginia cedar.

The notes for Halloween Man Shot are:

…brisk lemon daiquiri cocktail notes with spices of cardamom and black pepper. The aromatic – floral heart of iris and sage is placed on the intensive base of leather, vanilla and amber wood.

To be blunt, I have no idea why anyone would spend more than $20 or so for a bottle of DHI (let’s say at least 50 ml), and I would just swap or sell a bottle if I obtained one really inexpensively.  But how do most “newbie noses” experience DHI?  Is it some sort of olfactory revelation, since all he might know are Cool Water and its clones, Curve type scents, obnoxious party room clearers, and “grandfatherly” fougeres?  I remember not being ready for it in the early days – I couldn’t even detect sweetness in a scent!  Instead, I was more interested in the unique note combinations, not having even heard of a gourmand scent, for example.  It took me at least several months to detect “quality” differences, but then that was mostly about vintage versus recent.  I only rarely thought that a recent “top designer” was obviously “higher quality” than the best of the “lesser designers,” “celebuscents,” etc., from what I can remember.  Perhaps that was the thinking behind creating “exclusive”‘ designer lines.  But the most important thing (for me) was the decision not to spend too much before I thought I understood the significant differences.

I also remember seeing the vast price differences, but decided not to buy anything beyond the “cheapo” range, because I didn’t think I would be able to appreciate the supposedly significant differences that warranted the higher prices.  I did read a post or two at Basenotes.net, in which people were talking about how great this or that “cheapo” was, but I still couldn’t imagine it being “better” than a “top designer,” let alone niche, just very good for the price range.  But especially now, with IFRA guidelines more or less funneling any “mainstream” release into one of several directions, I see even less difference.  For example, inexpensive “oud scents” like Jovan’s Intense Oud, are fine for when I want that “punch in the face” synthetic oud experience (anything stronger wouldn’t work for me anyway).  And something like Magnet for Men by Eclectic Collections (which cost me around $8 for 100 ml, IIRC) is right up there with just about any other scent I’ve got (in terms of complexity, naturalness, dynamism, etc.), for my purposes (of course it’s not what I would reach for when I want to wear something like Leather Oud by Dior).

Now if I want some really rich and natural smelling notes, I’m going to reach for a vintage bottle, and I mean it’s probably going to be a batch from the early 1990s or earlier (or perhaps ten years later if made by a company like Guerlain, but of course there are some possible exceptions).  However, I usually want a more “modern” composition these days, and I’m quite content with the variety available at “cheapo” price levels.  I don’t know why anyone would seek to pay the higher prices, other than for psychological reasons that they are not aware of (or for “status” reasons that they are all too aware of!), again with a few possible exceptions.  But how do you communicate this to people who are convinced that the “big name” is meaningful?  I’m not sure there is a way, though a few of those people will likely “get it” and be very thankful once they realize what the reality is!  Again, why not wait until you are able to detect clear differences, and if you never can, why not just wear an inexpensive but similar scent?

 

 

 

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The Viking that never backs down!

…according to the standard economic framework, consumers’ willingness to pay is one of the two inputs that determine market prices (this is the demand). But as our experiments demonstrate, what consumers are willing to pay can easily be manipulated, and this means that consumers don’t in fact have a good handle on their own preferences and the prices they are willing to pay for different goods and experiences.

AND:

In our next test, we changed the brochure, scratching out the original price ($2.50 per pill) and inserting a new discount price of 10 cents. Did this change our participants’ reaction? Indeed. At $2.50 almost all our participants experienced pain relief from the pill [which was a placebo in both cases]. But when the price was dropped to 10 cents, only half of them did.

Pages 54 and 167 (respectively) of the book, “Predictably Irrational,” by Dan Ariely.

The main reason why I thought I should devote another post mainly to this scent, or rather, reactions to it, involve the human mind. As I often tell people, we are not all the same “between the ears.” We have different personalities, we learn things in different ways, we have different emotional responses (Russians, some researchers tell us, experience emotions at much lower intensity levels than most Americans, for example, and of course generally-speaking, which leads some to think that Russians “lack emotions”), etc. And that is in addition to things we already know, such as that religion, ethnic background, socio-economic status, etc. can make big differences in terms of how we perceive the world.

Viking is a scent I’d probably never wear (my review is at the end of this post) after a couple of sampling experiences, because there’s just nothing about it that’s particularly appealing to me.  At Fragrantica.com, someone accused me of “attacking” those who are claiming that Viking is some sort of “great” scent, which itself is an example of obvious misperception, because I was just trying to explain that you can enjoy a scent but you can’t expect everyone, or even anyone, to share that perception. This was my response:

…Who am I “attacking?” I’m merely saying that not everyone is going to like any particular scent and that there’s nothing about it that sounds like I’d like it. I don’t like lavender notes, I don’t like pepper notes, I don’t like aquatic/marine notes, I tend to dislike “smoky woods,” I don’t like ambroxan, I only like certain kinds of mint notes, etc. And what about the other 1500+ new releases? Why shouldn’t I sample them too? The reality is that even if a scent lists notes that I like and the reviews look good there’s probably at least a 25% chance I’m going to outright dislike it, and I’m talking about scents that cost around $30 or less because I rarely spend more than that on a bottle (most of my niche comes from swaps these days, and I have more than few niche bottles, including Creed’s Vintage Tabarome as a large decant). If you like Viking and it’s worth the price to you, great! If it gets you the “action” you are seeking, great (I guess)! But there’s no magic in that bottle, especially in this age of IFRA guidelines. DULLAH [whose opinion tends to be respected more than many others at Basenotes.net, and I’m always interested in hearing what he has to say] over at BN said it was like a light/sport version of L’Anarchiste by Caron, and that might be what some people are seeking (especially those who have never tried vintage L’Anarchiste), but please don’t tell us how great Viking is – it can be great for you but it’s not necessarily great for anyone else in the world, which is true for all the 100,000s of fragrances released over the last 150 years or so (the age of “Modern Perfumery”).

Now let’s contrast this to a comment made on the second major Viking thread at BN (the first one was closed by the moderators due to a perception of “overheated emotions” or something along those lines, apparently):

Can’t remember when my last blind buy was (quelle horreur!), so… I’ve just ordered Viking. The discussions here have intrigued me. Will definitely report back.

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/445645-The-Official-Creed-Viking-Thread-Part-2

I was going to respond with, “what, exactly, have you found intriguing? DULLAH said that it’s more or less a light/sporty version of L’Anarchiste; does that sound really great to you? And if another scent had the exact same commentary but cost $25 and was marketed under the name of a ‘lesser’ designer, would you come to the same conclusion?”  However, I decided to “back off” and see how things played out.

Now it’s certainly possible many would want to blind buy such a scent, simply because $25 “lesser designers” never get this much commentary, but doesn’t this person realize that Viking is getting all the commentary for reasons other than the scent itself? It may be a very nice scent for those who like ones of that type, no question, but how many will think it’s so special that it warrants the current prices? Instead, what seems to be at work is a collective generation of fantastical notions, for example, early in this thread we read:

After wearing my sample for a couple days it has really grown on me. Longevity is great and the fresh rain forest vibe with the spices is enjoyable. I love the salt and sandlewood notes, and I also find myself smelling it throughout the day and discovering new notes…

Then came:

I really like it, it’s becoming my go-to work scent for Autumn. Getting a lot of rotation at the moment. As someone above me said, it’s a complex scent that reveals new facets over time…

And then came:

It’s definitely red – bright fire engine red!

And then came:

Rain forest? Now that sounds interesting.

And then someone responded to the red comment with:

I like this description.

A previous poster was referring to the color of the bottle, but this person seemed to think it referred to a way of classifying the smell of it! All of this preceded the comment I quoted first, and suggests strongly that these kinds of comments are what influenced him. This is exactly why I wrote up the comments that I did, trying to point out that they are responding emotionally when in fact there really can’t be anything magical in that “bright fire engine red” Creed bottle. If there was, we’d have read commentary to that effect, and people like DULLAH would tell us what that was, such as when he commented about the high-quality rose of vintage Acteur by Azzaro. Another “respected voice,” the_good_life_had this to say on the original Viking thread:

Olivier Creed’s French uppercrust contempt for young American men and their consumer culture knows no limits. But like a postmodern jester he’s decided to make a parody of it that will nonetheless earn him s___loads of money. What a clever cynic.

(ridiculous French accents)
Erwin: “Papa, how is zee bottle coming along?”
Olivier: “It is not ugly enough yet, how say zee Americains? Cheesy. We need more cheese! I sink I draw ze Viking ship on an old Atari Computer!”
Erwin: “Have you found a revolting formule?”
Olivier: “Yes, ze cheapest possible without vomiting over my scent organ: melonal, ambrox – I will call that driftwood, haha – dihydromyrcenol, calone. 100 percent synthétique, it will be very ‘ard to engineer batch variations, but we will manage…It was so unbearable to make I had to put a bottle of vintage vol de Nuit next to me to inhale in between!”
Erwin: “You are a brave man, Papa!”
Olivier: “I know, my son. Now go play with your Lear jet!”

BN member Palmolive agreed with this assessment, saying:

Smelled this again the other day and still couldn’t shake those menthol Airwaves chewing gum mixed with Deep Heat balm and some woody vibes doused in cheap deodorant style citrics that this scent has in spades. It steps out like an old timer at the gym getting loosened up for a work out talking bout “Back in my day….”

and calling it the Emperor’s New Creed, but the “wishful thinking” emotions seem to have taken total control in more than a few BN members. And to those who think that Viking smells like rain or like this idea, how many have sampled Ocean Rain? It still amazes me how easily people can be taken in by fantastic promises (does this remind you of any recent elections?) when theoretically they should know it’s simply not possible. How can any company create a “mainstream” type scent that complies with IFRA and is something that is special? If they did something like load up the top with a powerful blueberry note, for instance, that would be a major focus in discussions, but with Viking, it’s vague, or they say there are “hidden facts” and “subtle intricacies” and that you’ll need to “give it time” if you want to experience these, which makes them sound like they belong to some sort of ancient, exclusive cult!

By contrast, over at Fragrantica, Viking, and Creed in general, seems to have become the butt of jokes by quite a few, for example, take a look at the page meant for a SpongeBob scent:

https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/SpongeBob-Squarepants/Gary-28291.html

So, at least the Viking release has led to some humor, but what’s also interesting is how the Fragrantica crowd, which at least in the past has tended to be younger and less experienced with fragrances, was able to assess Viking in a way that (IMO) is a lot more realistic than several at BN, which seems to have more members who have a strong devotion to the Creed brand. Why can’t such folks even bring themselves to say something like, “I think it’s great, but it’s the kind of scent for those who enjoy ______________ type fragrances, so I can understand that those who don’t wouldn’t perceive it as being worth more than perhaps a dollar per ml?”\

Here’s my review, as yet unpublished at BN:

This is a “busy” fragrance, reminding me of vintage Zino in that way. Mint and what I call a “chemical wood” element are most obvious at first. There’s a bit of sharpness, which I assume is the pepper, along with vague florals, citrus, and amber. There isn’t much sweetness nor muskiness now. The wood continues in strength but the mint more or less disappears within several minutes. Saltiness makes itself felt, and after that (not sure how long), there’s the resemblance to Pasha (with a bit of muskiness), though with the saltiness added (good call by the person who first suggested this!), but the “chemical wood” remains strong. I had no idea I was sampling Viking when I first did, because someone had sent me the sample and I thought it was a unisex scent, which was likely enhanced by the fact that I had sampled vintage Born Wild Men by Ed Hardy a few days earlier (and that one has a monstrous wood note of a similar charter, though it’s missing the several minutes of mint and the saltiness).

The claims about this being a fougere are likely from the Pasha type quality, but as someone who tends to dislike fougeres, I don’t consider Viking to be one. The next day I smelled the clothing that had come into contact with where I sprayed Viking and it reminded me of VC&A’s In New York (citrus, pepper, spice, “chemical wood”), and I found it to be most pleasant in this way. Aside from telling people you are wearing Creed’s Viking, I don’t understand why someone would pay more than say $70 per 100 ml for this, though I wouldn’t pay that much, mostly because these kinds of scents don’t appeal to me and I wear them very rarely (and already have a few bottles, such as 125 ml of In New York, 100 ml of Born Wild, etc.). I don’t think many people are wearing In New York these days, so if you want to be “unique” that one might function just as well as Viking. I’m not giving it a neutral rating because it’s so expensive but rather because it moves around so much and yet doesn’t do anything novel, along with how strong and “chemical” smelling that wood note is.

NOTE:  If I wanted mostly “chemical wood” type notes and mint, I’d go for Black is Black Sport, which is really inexpensive, though it’s more of a vetiver/wood than sandalwood.

 

 

 

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Creed’s new Viking release: an unofficial, non-review.

There are more than a few reviews of Viking on the major fragrance sites at the moment, so I thought I’d write up some thoughts, as I am not likely to sample it any time soon (it may be another super-hype scent, like Aventus).  The notes listed at Fragrantica.com are:

…bergamot, black currant and pink pepper; middle notes are driftwood, salt, rose and fruity notes; base notes are ambergris, oakmoss, sandalwood and sea salt.

With a name like Viking one might have guessed a Yatagan-like scent (at least before seeing the notes), but so far the reviews suggest it’s more like a Pasha type scent, with the anise/mint taken out and the salty element added.  I could go on a tirade about how ridiculous it is for a company that prides itself on “royal” affiliations to name a scent after those who slaughtered anyone who got in their way, including royalty, women, children, monks, etc., but one can just go to the Wikipedia page and decide for himself/herself.

My guess is that it has a dry/woody element that is not too strong, because that is much of what I get from Pasha (vintage formulation).  Here are the notes for it:

…lavender, mandarin orange, mint, caraway and anise; middle notes are coriander and brazilian rosewood; base notes are labdanum, sandalwood, patchouli and oakmoss.

I don’t get any of these notes with strength, unlike an “old school” scent with many of the same notes, such as Azzaro Pour Homme, where the lavender/fougere and anise are quite “in your face.”  Pasha is closer to Safari for Men, though I’d guess there’s a bit of dihydromyrcenol in Pasha (I don’t remember if I ever thought it was present in Safari).  Obviously, Creed’s perfumers don’t mind the use of this aroma chemical, because it’s clearly present in Green Irish Tweed.  And while I don’t get a specific salt aspect to Pasha, there is something about it that does suggest at least a hint of it.

Some who have sampled it say it is a “safe” and “all around” scent, and one wonders if the idea was to create a more interesting and less “chemical” version of a designer offering like Sauvage.  The main point I wanted to make in this blog post is that unless you are wealthy you might want to ask yourself if you can simulate Viking fairly well with a layering combination.  Now if you only own a few bottles then no, you probably aren’t going to get particularly close.  In my case, not only do I have a lot of bottles to choose from (and quite a variety too, including a whole lot of “feminines”), but I tend to dislike “salty” scents, so it might work out better for me, assuming I like the idea of a salty (or saltier) Pasha, more or less.

Thinking about the reviews of Viking (in terms of it being safe/”all purpose”) and my experiences with Pasha, I have to conclude that these kinds of scents are just not for me, and I really like the way Pasha smells!  The problem for me is that I lose interest in it quickly.  However, I realize this sort of perception can vary greatly from one person to another.  For example, Luca Turin said something similar about Jaipur Homme, yet to me that is a scent that I find to be quite interesting, in terms of the strong spice contrasting with the other notes.  I’d rather have a scent like JH, which I have to be in the mood to wear, than one like Pasha, which I doubt I’d ever have an issue with wearing, but almost always prefer another scent when deciding what to spray on in the morning.  It’s also not great for layering because it’s already rather complex, so I’d likely try a different scent to use if I wanted a layering combination with a salty element.

Viking doesn’t sound too complex, by contrast, and I wouldn’t mind sampling it (I’d likely wait for a “clone” if I enjoyed it, though, considering the prices), but lately I’ve found myself more interested in what I already have.  Over the last couple of years I’ve rarely found myself intrigued by a note list of a scent I’ve yet to sample, and that’s often in “super cheapos” anyway.  The notes for Playboy’s King of the Game, for example, include black coffee and an alcoholic drink accord (known as “Jager Bomb”); it’s certainly worth the $7 for 100 ml that I paid, as I enjoy it and do think about reaching for it, unlike Pasha.

Anyway, I went ahead and wore vintage Pasha, got bored with it (as expected) within the first couple of hours, then sprayed Red Sea by Micallef once just above the navel (below where I sprayed Pasha).  Sure enough, I was thinking, “yes, Viking sort of makes sense, but it’s more like the shore right before the vikings came to invade!”  Now I doubt I would have thought that if I didn’t have that name on my mind, but the important thing (for me) is that both scents were improved by this combination (IMO).  The notes for Red Sea are:

Top notes are neroli and cinnamon; middle notes are rose and iris; base notes are sandalwood and musk.

So, I’m glad Creed and the “fanboys” gave me the idea to try this!  If and when I sample Viking I’ll be sure to update this post or create a new one about it.  If you have tried it, please let us know what you think.

NOTE:  For those who want to talk about the name/design, it’s interesting that a significant area of the bottle is covered in orange – that doesn’t seem to make sense, for example:

In heraldry, orange is a rarely used tincture except in South Africa and in the heraldry of the United States Army. A more accurate picture of its use is at tenné.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(heraldry)

And in the West, orange would seem to be the exact opposite of what the name Viking suggests:

In Europe and America orange and yellow are the colours most associated with amusement, frivolity and entertainment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(colour)#Colour_of_amusement

By contrast, purple is the royal color, at least in European history.  What about real vikings?

“Blue and red were popular colours throughout the Viking Age. In general, they all wore colourful clothes with patterns and sewn-on ribbons,” says Mannering, adding that archaeologists have come across examples of colours covering the entire colour palette.

http://sciencenordic.com/what-vikings-really-looked

Some Basenotes.net members seem to be thinking along the same lines, for example:

…This new Creed release just looks rediculous, in terms of perfume pyramid matching the theme of the scent.
What a blasphemic step…

And:

…that [bottle] is hideous.

And the color simply doesn’t match at all with the concept or notes.

And:

…the discordance is very jarring, if Creed were creating a fragrance called Silk Road and were to switch the logo to something more appropriate the vivid red/orange colour would work but for Viking I was expecting a much darker shade and around cobalt blue with gold trimmings, maybe even switch it up to a wooden cap to keep with the theme…

I liked the name Aventus – why not come up with an original name so that will only be associated with your scent?  For me, though, it’s the scent that matters – I’d buy a scent called Royal Turd if I really liked it, even if there was a pile of you-know-what pictured on the bottle!

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A “mini me” Sécrétions Magnifiques? A Fragrant Mystery?

I have no idea why those who had the license to Perry Ellis fragrances released Perry Ellis by Perry Ellis for Men (I think that’s the official name for it) in 2008.  When I first sprayed it on, I was thinking that it doesn’t seem to fit in with other “masculines,” of that time or any other!  Of course I may just be ignorant of certain kinds of masculines of that period, because I was never a fan of citrus-dominant fragrances.  But let’s start with the notes – even there are not clear.  For example, Fragrantica.com has the notes as:

…grapefruit, woody accords, resins, iris root, leather.

But Parfumo.net has the notes as:

Green apple, Grapefruit, Patchouli, Woody notes, Amber, Musk, Leather.

Then there’s the Basnotes.net list, which is just apple and amber.  I don’t get a clear apple note, green or otherwise, and instead it seems like a soft grapefruit.  And it begins quite musky.  Several reviews talk of a metallic, bloody, or fishy note or aroma chemical, and when I wafted this to my nose I detected that, but since it’s not pleasant I stopped, and then didn’t smell it again.  My guess is that the people who say this smell it up close or waft it around.  Now in 2005, Everlast Original 1910 was released, which included these notes (from Fragrantica):

…lime, lavender, mandarin orange, mint and grapefruit; middle notes are nutmeg, cypress, cinnamon, tarragon and geranium; base notes are leather, tonka bean, patchouli, musk and guaiac wood.

However, EO 1910, while possessing strong grapefruit/citrus in general and leather, also has a fougere accord gets a bit oriental over time, whereas PEbPEfM doesn’t change much.  The citrus gets weaker but the musk really hangs in there for hours (thankfully, it’s not of the sharp “white” variety, but it’s not animalic either).  After a few hours, I do begin to think this isn’t too far from EO 1910’s drydown.  I never got clear iris, “resins,” nor woods, and the leather is more like a texture to me.  It’s a touch a sweet, but otherwise indistinct, though in its own way (I wouldn’t call it a “blob” because there are a few obvious facets).  There is still an oddball quality to it, in terms of the metallic, bloody, fishy element but it has dissipated more than a little.  And this brings me to Sécrétions Magnifiques, which was released in 2006, the official notes being (from Fragrantica):

Lodized accord (fucus, azurone), adrenalin accord, blood accord, milk accord, iris, coconut, sandalwood, opoponax…

And if you don’t know, this is a scent that has nauseated its fair share of aficionados, who claim to smell things like spoiled milk, metallic blood, etc.  My guess is that those who say this are more likely to smell it up close on the skin, but since I’ve never sampled it, I can only wonder whether the perfumer for PEbPEfM decided to do a low-level designer version of SE for the “masses.”  At Fragrantica no perfumer is listed for it, but Antoine Lie composed the other two.  Even if he had no part in the creation of PEbPEfM, another perfumer might have sampled the other two and thought about combining those.  In some ways it reminds me of the original Hummer scent (“vintage” formulation), in that it’s a fairly recent “mainstream” release with a strong (and interesting) but not entirely “friendly” muskiness.  Perhaps this would be great for someone who doesn’t want to smell too much like all the other young guys (many or most wearing Sauvage?) but doesn’t want to stray into the potentially weird waters of niche.

But wait, there’s another possible “mystery,” depending upon how you define them.  When I posted about PEbPEfM not long ago over at Basenotes, one comment on that thread was:

…it’s quite disgusting. It smells even cheaper than it costs. I can’t see any basenoter enjoying it. It is synthetic but that’s not the worst part. It’s just a total mess and it’s topped with this rotten ‘aquatic’ stuff.

My response was:

Perhaps you should have read the reviews before making the latter statement? And how many BNers like Secretions Magnifique? Is that one for “sophisticated noses” whereas because this one was released by Perry Ellis it’s got to be bad? Seriously, these are just smells, so if you don’t like them, fine, but you don’t have to implicitly (if not explicitly) assert that some scents are “bad” and some are “good.” I think more than a few BN favorites are a kind of olfactory torture, but I know that there are factors at work, such as sensitivity to certain aroma chemicals, that need to be taken into account. This PE scent is what I think of as a training wheels Secretions Magnifique, so I might actually wear it once in a while, and in fact if I spray the air with it and walk through the mist, it might be quite good. I’d much rather have a bottle of it than a whole bunch of other scents, and that would include TdH, Fahrenheit, the original Moschino Pour Homme, etc. (all other things being equal; otherwise I’d take one of those others and sell the bottle quickly).

Here’s the “mystery” element, IMO, embodied by this hypothetical question:  what if Antoine Lie had created PEbPEfM, and in an interview had said he was “perfecting” his Sécrétions Magnifiques composition, with one aspect being to make it more wearable?  Would it then be embraced by those who think they can speak to “objectively good” scents that “sophisticated noses” would appreciate?  Why can so many like the idea behind Escentric Molecule scents, but can’t seem to recognize an interesting composition released under the Perry Ellis brand name?  But one doesn’t need to go that far – what about Terre d’Hermes?  When I first tried it back around 2008 it felt like a chemical assault!  How in the world is that “objectively” better than PEbPEfM?  Again, for all we know PEbPEfM was Lie’s greatest achievement (in his opinion, at least), but even if he had nothing to do with it, how does one “objectively” say PEbPEfM is terrible but “vintage” TdH is great?  How can some people become so distorted in their thinking?

 

 

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